מי שלא הרגישה את זה לא תבין על מה מדברים! זה מלווה אותך כל הזמן אפרת ברזל בשיחה על עולם הבדידות

Have you ever done a show in the rain? No. We've had renovations, battle planes. But in the rain? I think it'll be very interesting. It'll be fun. I love the rain. It'll be good. I'm sure. Let's start. If you've never experienced loneliness in your life, you won't understand what we're talking about in this episode. But if you've experienced loneliness, you'll know what it's like. Hello, Liat Keren. Hello, Efrat. Hello, Yaffa Naftali-Matzri. Hello. What is this thing, Liat, that is called loneliness? I think that loneliness is something that constantly accompanies a person. But it has varying

degrees of severity. But it becomes much more complex in family life, or even when you're old. With an overwhelming family life, with babies at home, you can't just get up and recharge whenever you want. First of all, you have to take care of others, to fuel others. So, is the feeling of loneliness something that's deeply personal and sad? It's not necessarily sad. I think that a person needs company. It's a social aspect. And sometimes it's just not possible. When you're, let's say, an older person, at home, alone, you don't always have someone to talk to, everyone has their own lives. Or

when you're home with three babies, you can't just go out and start making friends. So, what's going on, Yaffa, with this feeling that's not necessarily objective, connected to what you see from the outside? I mean, there are people who are surrounded by people and feel this thing called loneliness. Yes. Maybe I'll start with what Liat said. She said the right thing. A person is a social creature. That is, a person needs people around him, needs to be in touch with people. But a person also finds all kinds of technology, roads, cars and planes. And the family expands and spreads to different

cities. And then, suddenly, the nuclear family has to manage alone, without the same social resources they had before. I'll refer to what you said, and you said something very, very true, that a person can be surrounded by people, and not like Liat said, about someone with less ability. And yet, he's complaining about loneliness. Now, when a person comes to therapy, the first thing the therapist will say, is that there's a person behind the loneliness. Let's look at this person's history. What stage of life is he at? Is he really at the stage where he has babies at home, after the birth and

after all the hardships? Or is he already old, sitting alone, because his spouse, G-d forbid, has already passed away, the kids have left the house. What exactly is the stage, what stage of life is he at? And many times, if someone doesn't go to therapy, or isn't cured, it gets worse and worse. It becomes part of a person's personality. Fortunately, we have different methods, different psychological methods to deal with these questions. And one of the things, for example, is CBT. CBT will ask questions, like, what is a person's core belief? What core beliefs does this person have? Because

when we're talking about a person who says he feels lonely, is there a connection to his previous beliefs about contact with people? Exactly. I had a young girl, ten years old, that one of the core beliefs her mother engrained in her head, that her friends would always take advantage of her, they'd lie to her - that it's not worth it to have friends. - So she distanced herself from them. The mother is the best friend. So she didn't learn, and she wasn't exposed to social connections. Many times, these beliefs are limiting. They don't allow a person to really move towards society, to "swim"

amongst society, okay? And it's something that presents itself until he challenges those beliefs and those thoughts, okay? I want us to go into, for a moment, understanding the feeling of loneliness. Because, Liat, you know, sometimes, when a person feels something themself, there's no one more correct than them, because they experienced it in their flesh, to help someone else. Do you know the feeling of loneliness? Yes. Basically, the feeling of loneliness is something that... at least for me, it always accompanies me, but to varying degrees of severity. When I was single, before I got

married, I could always fill my loneliness in all kinds of ways. And then I got married, and I gave birth to three children in a year. A girl, and after a year, twins. And suddenly, I wasn't doing well, but I had three children who needed me, and I couldn't charge myself. That's where the feeling of loneliness enters at a very deep level. Because I... 24-7, I had to be focused on them. As much as there was help here and there, it wasn't always easy for those who came to help. Not everyone was able, it wasn't something they were paid for. So that's why I say that sometimes, if you have a

neighbor or a friend who you know is having a hard time, the best thing you can do for her is to come and spend time with her one afternoon. Not to suggest, not to advise, not to clean her house, but just to be with her. To sit on the couch and chat with her. Yes, with the kids in the background, with the screams, the cries, the diapers. If people would be able to successfully get beyond this place, to connect socially, this less superficial, deeper place, and, they would be able to help each other, it could really help a lot of lonely people. It's so sad, it's so sad to hear, and it's so sad

that we're all trying, or at least talking about it, that we're people of kindness, and we're good to each other, and the nation of Israel is one, and so on. And there are so many injuries, and war, and pain, and in the end, we're surrounded by ourselves. People who, all they need is other people. Not in the context of therapy, or without any issue of...completely normal. I think that Liat pointed out something very important, the helplessness aspect of loneliness. I mean, even if I'm aware that I am capable of doing something for myself, I can't. And then she suggests something very true,

that someone else from outside will come and help me. There's this initiative right now, a young woman who started a small company that supports women after they give birth. And suddenly, she has a wave of inquiries for this issue. Because you're talking about women who truly just gave birth, who, in order not to be affected by postpartum depression, they need to get the support, this place that doesn't exist in just any society. But sometimes, sometimes, as I said before, we have these beliefs, that don't allow us to connect. Or we have our problems from the past that don't allow us to

connect. Because it's not just this current situation of pregnancy, or birth, and so on. And not just that, there can be women, men too, by the way, with no connection to pregnancy and birth, who experience loneliness. We're pointing this out here now, because this is us, this time...but, there's something, I think, that's eternal in a person's inner self, that there's also... Maybe we should refine it, and not call it loneliness, but there's also an aspect of being alone, which is called isolation. And it's an aspect that sometimes, maybe if we talk about it the other way around, women

sometimes feel the opposite. Do me a favor, leave me alone, that no one will call me, that no one will talk to me. I want to be alone. Oh, that's where you meet yourself. Meeting yourself is not a simple thing, and it's not easy, because you're not always familiar with yourself enough. You haven't developed enough of your inner world and your sense of self. You don't know yourself enough. So you're right that there are people who are more able, or more willing, to be alone for a while, and to get their own light, because they have themselves, which is, as we said, an entire world. I think to

myself for a moment that married women, sometimes with a lot of children, 17, 20, 5, and a spouse who's present, can also feel, even though they're surrounded by a lot of people, they can also feel alone, like they don't understand what they want, they don't have anyone to truly talk to, everything is done technically, and they really don't have anyone with whom to share. Do you encounter people like that? First of all, I also do marriage therapy, and I want to tell you that it's so true what you're saying. If the couple hasn't built the connection throughout their lives, they experience very

strong feelings of loneliness. And loneliness within marriage is much harder than loneliness alone. Exactly. Because there is, but there isn't. Yes. There's a well-known joke that a marriage counselor gives an exercise and says, every evening sit down for 5 minutes, 10 minutes, just talk about what we did all day, one with the other. And then the husband asks the wife, was there anything interesting? Do you have anything interesting to tell me? She says, no. He says, what a coincidence? Neither do I. We've completed our assignment and we can do something else. Communication is something that

has to be built throughout life. And loneliness within marriage is, let's say, the most difficult loneliness. Right. Liat, there's something amazing about what you're doing. You know how to talk to other women who are lonely. That's your specialty. How do you identify with a woman who is lonely? You can see a mother with a child who is sad, she can't find herself. She just wants to please the child, she just wants the day to pass as it should. Or, in a better case, but also a much worse situation for the woman sometimes, with a lot of children running after her, and she's alone, she's alone.

She just needs someone to be with her. Maybe her husband is at work, or he's busy. Just someone to be with. Yaffa, when a person can't create connections on their own. It doesn't matter what the reason is. As a society, how can we, beyond just paying attention, be focused on this issue? Because it's not just random that in England there's someone appointed to deal with loneliness there's also someone appointed in Japan as well to deal with issues of loneliness, and studies show that the body is damaged. The health is damaged. The health is damaged, not just the mental health, but the physical

health as well. And we've even seen that people who are already in the process of getting sick, from dangerous diseases, will get better and will respond to drugs a lot more when they're surrounded by with company, than when they're alone. So the body, yes, "it's not good for man to be alone." Right. Chazal it seems know what they're talking about. Right. So first of all, really... Some social advice is try to join groups. A group has the power of feeling togetherness. So even if there's no good friend who joins, who comes to my house, I'll do the seeking. Go and join other people. I think

that, as I said before, we're social creatures. And our resolution is to be social. First of all, to create this place. Now, if I lose some trust, and I lose the skills of communication and connection, and how can I enter society, and all that kind of stuff, I can work on that. There are groups of people who train in these areas. I hear us here in conversation, and I imagine the following statement. Let's say a woman feels lonely. Okay? Not isolated, but lonely. And she understands that she's in trouble. How much of that is still not part of the conversation, and I hope it will be, certainly

when we learn to discuss our feelings in the open, and say, my heart hurts, my legs hurt, my body, my soul. To have enough confidence to approach someone and say to them, listen, I feel lonely, I don't have enough friends. I never had, or maybe I had previously but not anymore... Can I be your friend? And how will the other person react? Is it taboo, or is it something that can be accepted? From what I've encountered, many people have trouble with deep and honest communication. They're used to connecting in superficial ways... not entering inward. And everyone shows that they're strong,

independent, and they don't need anyone. It's hard. If you find someone who you can talk to and she accepts it, it's amazing. Amazing. And even if she says, I can't be your friend, but let's take care of this... What is this group of women that you established, a group of friends? Yes, a group of women who are in the same situation. And their whole issue is loneliness, wanting friends. Yes, wanting a friend. That's amazing. And of course, everyone in their situation can identify with others, and together somehow succeed. And there's another topic, the issue of aging. All the people who have

grown children and grandchildren, and they're all busy with their lives. And the country has a program that sends them help through Bituach Leumi. And often these counselors also have a very important role. Because the elderly don't always need to be cooked for how much do they eat already, and how much can someone clean and wash things for them - they're just one person. It's just that if someone wants to do something beyond that, it's to give them a warm feeling, they should take them out for coffee in the mall, to sit with them, to bring them coffee and pastries, and to talk with them.

Just those two hours. It will give them much more than coming and cleaning the house and preparing a pot of food. I have a great example of that. I have a cousin who just started some kind of initiative, she took her children to an apartment building, and they went to their neighbor, who was a Holocaust survivor - very old. And they told her they wanted to ask her questions if it was possible. She arranged a meeting with them, and they brought cake and treats with them. All the ages were represented there. And they visited this woman, who pulled herself together for them - she even put on

perfume. And she just told them things that she hadn't told her family before. And they sat for some time. And this cousin who did this, and had this initiative, told me, from that moment on, you can only see her in the stairwell, in the elevator, everyone is chasing her. Suddenly there's love, there's affection, there's care. And she's blossoming. And it's so true, to see who's around you. Who's by your side. I hope that whoever sees this will be more inclined to say hello in the elevator. Yes, enough "hi", and "how are you"? It's a lot. But what happened to us? What did we become? I think

that, first of all, also Corona, there are still a lot of after-effects of Corona. Because during Corona we were forced to isolate ourselves. We were suddenly forced to lose skills, to lose connections. We also learned to be alone more. The second thing is the façade. People won't come and say, Listen, I really need your help, maybe you can invite me for a cup of coffee? Because how will it look? Not everyone can handle it, and we won't accept it so well. And the screens, the phones, a person is busy with the screen. Beautiful, right. When I see a father sitting with his child, and he's on

the screen. What is the child learning now? Where? People on the bus, at work, everyone with themselves. So even eye contact, which once was easier for us, was taken away from us. Absolutely. And all the social media and all the friendships there, will it change? Yes? No? Look, it's better than nothing. Yes, exactly. It's better than nothing. But on the other hand, it caused children to leave the house less. Because they're with their friends on the game, or on the internet, or on the computer. They just don't go out as much. And you're living in some sort of world between reality and

fantasy. You suddenly have friends on the internet, who aren't real. And the real friends don't go out as much, because they feel it's time wasted that they could've spent... And suddenly, children are also talking about loneliness. I've met with teenagers. It's heartbreaking. The parents aren't really present, they're busy with their careers, or other things. And the children are alone, with a sense of loneliness. They're saying it. They're saying it. They know how to talk and say, I'm not accepted in the classroom. Suddenly you say, wait, it's a kind of loneliness, that we create, because

the parents are in some kind of hurry, after work, so that they're not alone either. And then the children are alone, and then everyone is alone. That's where I start my work with family therapy. It often helps a lot. Of course. Liat, is there a moment when you can look at loneliness retrospectively, and say, Hey, I used to be lonely. Suddenly I have a lot of friends. Or even there are those who say, I have everything I need with just one friend. The joy that's infused in this togetherness is something that... What happens there, in our inner world, that we need to say, wait, I'm suddenly not

alone. I'm moving towards some kind of optimism right now. Suddenly I'm not alone. Someone here gave me advice earlier, that she was in the same situation, and she just... Everyone somehow connects, she prayed a lot and asked. She just asked. She wrote to herself what she wanted. I want to make friends. It's hard for me to be alone here. I want to find... And she really said that after she asked a lot, she got it. So it's something that seems possible. And yes, it feels like success, after you've worked very hard, to get out of a bad situation. You feel successful after you've found what you

wanted. You feel fulfilled. Do you know why I'm excited? Because yesterday I lectured somewhere, and we spoke about prayer. I'm referring here to praying for a friend. Hashem, help me to have a friend. So I spoke about my experiences there, from the house of Rabbanit Kanievsky, A"H. And then suddenly one of them got very excited, raised her hand, and she said, Now I understand what it is that the Rabbanit said to anyone who came to her, Pray for this. And then they would say, no, you pray for me, because the Rabbanit is a great person, etc. And she would say, no, you pray for this, because

something happens when you ask for something, when you really need it, within yourself, from your spiritual sense, and you're already including Hashem in this, you become, at that moment, like a partner. It's impossible almost not to succeed, because you've already connected yourself, the first inner awakening with the Creator of the world, and you're already part of it, you're no longer alone, because you've already joined, and you've already... Like this famous saying, "A Jew is never alone", have we failed in this? First of all, it's a very true saying. Because if we look at Western

psychology, it really tells a person - be an individual and develop yourself. And the parents don't matter, they shouldn't limit you, that education shouldn't confine you and culture shouldn't confine you. Be yourself, reject everything. As opposed to Judaism, which says no, you're part of an entire tradition. Listen to your parents, respect the elderly, because they carry your tradition with them. They're your roots, really. You just carry on with this tradition. And I think that this attitude is much less prevalent in Judaism. But I wanted to say something about prayer, which really moved

me. Because we talked earlier about the thoughts we have in our heads. Why are we alone? Now, let's say a person says, I'm alone. I'm alone. I'm roaming the world. I'm alone. He says hello to his neighbor, the neighbor doesn't really answer. Because that's me, I'm alone. And at a certain point, when he says, I'm going to ask Hashem to find a friend. Not to be alone. Already in his mind, he made a huge change. Exactly. Because now, I also have an expectation that I believe that Hashem will bestow His goodness on me and I will find a friend. A new thought that will also lead to action. Because

how does it work? It begins with a thought, or an interpretation of reality, that brings me certain feelings and leads to action. And here, I've changed. I've simply changed the /disk. It's such a beautiful action, and prayer in everything, in every subject. So maybe that's the way to recharge yourself, when you're feeling helpless. Right. And you don't have the ability to go out and make friends, like the way you normally would, that you're familiar with. It's to pray, to ask, to anticipate. Right. Absolutely. Now I want to touch on another point, because we've talked a lot about loneliness,

and it is indeed an episode on loneliness. But there is another personality type, of people who are "social animals", as it's called, who in seconds make friends with others, and they always have a million people in their contacts, and they can immediately make... But I sometimes hear that also this extremely extroverted, friendly behavior also conceals within some kind of fear of... Being alone. Yes. That's exactly the place of... I would call it "manic defenses". What is "manic defenses"? I'll be happy. I'll be in a group. I'll do a million things. I'll meet a lot of people. And actually, I

won't touch the pain. I won't touch my loneliness, okay? It's a much less brave person than a lonely person. He finds for himself, let's say, his means of protection, okay? Sometimes you can see someone in a company that you can't be with, because he just talks. And he talks and talks and talks and talks, and he doesn't listen, for a moment. And you say, wait, if he stops, what will happen to him? Wow, he needs to look inside. Wow, what a good question. If he stops, what will happen to him? And he's the loneliest in the world, because people run away from him, because it's hard for them with

all the talk, this "spaghetti talk", I call it. I don't know where it starts and where it ends. Wow. That's one place. Another place is silence. You're sitting with company, and okay, I found company, I found a group, everything is fine, and okay, give to me, I'm not contributing anything, I'm not speaking. What happened? I had a girl who was in Shidduchim, and every Shidduch finished, that's it, no one contacted her again. And when we did a role-playing game, of what do you do during the date? So she mainly answered questions, and goes home. Like some sort of job interview. And she doesn't

talk about herself. She doesn't say anything, she doesn't ask anything. She answers whatever he asks her. Do you have sisters? Yes. How many sisters? Two. What do you do? I work on this and that. The interview is over, and the guy goes home. And when she sat down and we did this role-playing game, this role-playing, she suddenly understood. And in the next guy she went out with, she married. Today she has a child. Baruch Hashem. So it also creates loneliness, communication. We need to work a lot, a lot, on correct, positive communication. Because in the end, a person, like the book of Zohar

says, is a "Nefesh Mimalila" If we don't talk, how do we create a connection? And there, we need a lot of work - self-work, and with the help of others. So it's both from the outside and from the inside. Absolutely. What about the question that's very related to loneliness? Does a person need one good friend, or many friends? Or does it just depend on one's personality? You already see this in adolescence. A girl who has a lot of friends, or four friends, and a girl who has her friend from kindergarten, they're always together, and only together. It very much depends on one's personality.

Very, very personality dependent. Have you encountered this as well? Yes, for me it's more a place of, I need all kinds of people. There are friends I like to go out with, there are friends I like to talk to in deep conversations, so it really depends on personality. If you're more multifaceted and deep, you need all kinds of people. There's also the idea that sometimes you need one friend, because it's so possessive, I see it with children sometimes, and you have to feel this confidence, like, in quotation marks, "a couple" So it really depends on personality. Sometimes it's really about

quantity and quality. You have to balance between the two. Right, and if I go even deeper, I think that when you already have friends, it's amazing to see in ourselves, how each friend brings out different aspects of our inner self. Meaning, always with this friend, you feel a certain way, and with this friend, you feel a different way. From the perspective of drawing ourselves out. But you can also see how from each friend you receive something different, and I think in this "boutique" world that has been created over the years, it's nice to see that there are different types of friendships.

Meaning, there's a friend who will help you, and you'll only call her to get advice. And there's a friend you'll never call, and you also don't need this from her. And there's a friend who - what, you're smiling because you understand me? Definitely. And there's another topic that can be discussed, about people I meet who tell me, I don't need friends. I have a husband who can fill me up enough, I have children who can fill me up enough, it's on a spectrum. And I feel that for chatting, I have someone, and I have someone to spend time with, and that's the right balance for me. Yes. – All set,

right? Sometimes yes, and sometimes no. How do we balance that? – I had a student, a student, in psychology actually, he came with a very deep sense of loneliness, and he decided to go for testing. It was his, not mine. And it turned out he was on the spectrum - very high functioning. Which means that the loneliness, which was also part of his choice, he had an organic reason for it. And that suddenly made him do something else. First, to accept himself, it's a lot of work to accept yourself, and to accept these sides of his nature, of this loneliness. That it enriches you in its own way, OK?

– Right. So it's very, very dependent on one's personality, it's very, very dependent. People say that you can't create anything if you're not alone. That only in this loneliness, which sometimes really comes deep within us, you can't get out of it. There's a very beautiful song about this, that "every relationship wipes out one of my songs" Oh, wonderful. – It's really, really beautiful. Wonderful, wonderful. Look, what you described earlier is a relationship that I would call symbiotic. That there's no space in the relationship, they do everything together. They're partners in the same

office, each one does something else. They're with the kids, they're with the grandkids, they always go out together, they walk together. What happens when G-d forbid, one partner gets sick or is no longer able? How much loneliness is there for the other partner? The second thing is, how much this hinders you. I imagine it's like swimming in an ocean or in a pool, when you're holding someone's hand. Is that possible? Because even in the best of couples, there has to be some kind of space that leaves room... If you know who Emanuel Levinas is... – Of course. So he said in one of his books that

I'm responsible for my partner's "otherness". Beautiful. For maintaining this... – Exactly. Because even my spouse, is not my extension. He has to develop himself on his own. And also he's not my child. – Exactly, exactly. Liat, I want to wish the group of friends you've established. I don't know whether to bless that it should grow because hopefully women will get rid of this loneliness on their own, "odds and evens", or that we'll no longer encounter lonely women, but that the joy of being together will be a real joy of companionship, also with these initiatives that you do by yourself, and

also for us as a society, to be mindful, of those who are so alone and want to be connected. Thank you very much. Thank you Liat Keren. - Thank you. Thank you, Yaffa Naftali-Matzri. - Thank you. I always say at the end of this program, don't be alone with your problems, and don't be alone with questions of the soul that haven't been answered. But especially with this program, don't be alone. Period. Find this person, that person, who will be happy to sit down and get to know your inner world. That's friendship. See you later. Our relationships, loneliness, friendship, the connection between

two people grows like age. Sometimes you can look at each other without words. Suddenly, just because of the silence, you can have a conversation, a new conversation. And he listens, and she listens. And suddenly, she's crying. And he too, sheds a tear. It's a moment of peace. Because King David knew. Because you realize in these moments, how much humility is found in not saying another word. What does this allow? "Give me humility, and she will endure" Sit quietly with your loved ones, and see how many words suddenly come out.